Monday, October 23, 2006

Halloween Fast Approaches

Is it wicked to go trick-or-treating? I just came across this post from Challies.com, and I trust that this will be helpful. Please keep in mind that the remainder of this post is from him. I agree mostly with what he says. Feel free to comment if you can.

My conviction is that it is a very poor witness to have the house of believers blacked out on Halloween. Halloween presents a unique opportunity to interact with neighbors, to meet their children and to prove that Christians are part of the community and not merely people who want only to interact with Christian friends or to only interact in our own way and on our own terms. At the same time I despise how evil Halloween is. Already our neighborhood has ghosts hanging from trees and evil plastic figurines stuck into lawns. One section of houses nearby always feels the need to go the extra step, playing recordings of scary music, dressing in occult costumes and generally glorying in evil. To this time we have allowed our children to go out trick-or-treating, provided they do not wear evil or occult costumes. It is a compromise, and admittedly not one I am entirely comfortable with. Over the past several years churches in our neighborhood have offered an alternative to Halloween with "harvest parties" or similar events. These tend to be parties in a nearby community center that allows children to dress up and get their fill of candy in a less-pagan environment. But there are other churches that encourage families to be present in their homes, to greet their neighbours and to look for opportunities to interact with them. A couple of the pastors in a nearby church are going so far as to hold neighbourhood barbecues before dark and inviting people to come and share a meal with them. I think this is a great idea.

Perhaps the greatest fallacy Christians believe about Halloween is that by refusing to participate in the day we are somehow taking a stand against Satan. And second to that, is that participation in the day is an endorsement of Satan and his evil holidays. The truth is that Halloween is not much different from any other day in this world where, at least for the time being, every day is Satan's day and a celebration of him and his power. A member of the discussion discussion list wrote the following last year around this time: "Yeah... I've heard all of the 'pagan' reasons Christians should avoid Halloween. The question is whether we are actually participating in Samhain when we participate in Halloween? Who or what makes the 'Witch's League of Public Awareness' the definers of what Halloween is, either now or historically? Such a connection between Samhain and my daughter as a ladybug or my son as a Bengals Boy is highly dubious." And it is highly dubious at best.

I am guessing my neighbourhood is all-too-typical in that people typically arrive home from work and immediately drive their cars into the garage. More often than not they do not emerge again until the next morning when they leave for work once more. We are private, reclusive people who delight in our privacy. We rarely see our neighbors and rarely communicate with them. It would be a terrible breach of Canadian social etiquette for me to knock on a person's door and ask them for a small gift or even just to say "hello" to them. In the six years we have been living in this area, we have never once had a neighbor come to the door to ask for anything (except for this time). Yet on Halloween these barriers all come down. I have the opportunity to greet every person in the neighbourhood. I have the opportunity to introduce myself to the family who moved in just down the row a few weeks ago and to greet some other people I have not seen for weeks or months. At the same time, those people's children will come knocking on my door. We have two possible responses. We can turn the lights out and sit inside, seeking to shelter ourselves from the pagan influence of the little Harry Potters, Batmans and ballerinas, or we can greet them, gush over them, and make them feel welcome. We can prove ourselves to be the family who genuinely cares about our neighbours, or we can be the family who shows that we want to interact with them only on our terms. Most of our neighbors know of our faith and of our supposed concern for them. This is a chance to prove our love for them.

The same contributor to the email list concluded his defense of participating in Halloween with these words: "One night does not a neighbor make (and one night does not a pagan make), but Halloween is the one night of the year where the good neighborliness that flows from being in Christ is communicated and reinforced. We are citizens of another Kingdom where The Light is always on."

The truth is that I have several convictions regarding Halloween. I despise the pagan aspects of it. I am convicted that my children should not dress as little devils or ghosts or monsters. But I am also convicted that there could be no worse witness to the neighbours than having a dark house, especially in a neighbourhood like ours which is small and where every person and every home is highly-visible. We know that, if we choose not to participate, the neighbors will notice and will smile knowingly, supposing that we feel too good to participate. We have nothing to fear from our neighbours or from their children. So my children will dress up (my son as a police officer and my daughter as a princess) and we will visit each of our neighbours, knocking on their doors and accepting their fistfuls of candy. Either my wife or I will remain at home, greeting people at our door with a smile and a handful of something tasty. If the kids are deemed too old to trick-or-treat, they'll be forced to sing a song to merit any handouts. Our door will be open and the light will be on. And we trust that the Light will shine brightly.

My encouragement to you today is to think and pray about this issue. I do not see Halloween as a great evangelistic occasion. I do not foresee it as a time when the people coming to your door are likely to be saved. But I do think it is a time that you can prove to your neighbors that you care about them, that you care about their children, and that you are glad to be in this world and this culture, even if you are not of this world or this culture. Halloween may serve as a bridge to the hearts of those who live around you who so desperately need a Savior.

46 comments:

Gage Browning said...

Very good thoughts... I've often wondered why those who don't participate in the scary holiday, do in fact make sure to have that "pagan bush" around on Dec. 25th.

It's always good to be salt and light! Thanks for your post.

Barbara said...

The comments made by this Pastor are interesting. I do take a stand against the day that is celebrated as halloween. God has shown me many things regarding this time. I helped develop a program at our old church in Zeeland. We called it light night. Kids did not wear costumes and the admission price was one large bag of wrapped candy. They decorated white bags with fun stickers and markers. Our weight loss group at church(really) divided up the candy in all the bags, so the kids got to go home with what they wanted, the candy. We would have fun and games and then a gospel presentation. It was one time when kids were excited to invite their friends. One year - I was in the hospital during light night - and the next day the senior pastor came to visit(I was on my way back to surgery-ugh) and informed me that the church during the night had been riddled with hundreds of BB gun holes - an entire glass door was shattered with the BBs. My comment to pastor was "is that the best Satan could do?"
In alllegan county forest - the DNR will not enter there on the 31st - but on Nov. 1 when they go to patrol - they find many animal sacrifices. A pastor in Zeeland - his life was threatened a number of years ago because he had a series on the occult.
My children were never hidden in a dark house, we always had a great time, whether it was at church or at a corn maze or going out for pizza. We choose to honor God on His day. If you want to know more,I will share, but I want to keep the posts within reason.
Have a blessed day(every day) in the Lord!

PT2 said...

Thinking through this more, I really think Challies does a great job on his post. We really do need to be salt and light IN the world!

Anyway....

gage,

Great point! Although there are those "consistent ones" who do refuse to celebrate Christmas because of the pagan heritage....

------------

barbara,

I totally agree that there are wicked things happening on Halloween. And, we all must come to our decisions Scripturally as to what it means to "honor God on His day."

Thanks for taking the time to post.

natamllc said...

PT2

you can thank Gage for me coming in here.

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Pro 26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
Pro 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
Pro 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honor to a fool.
Pro 26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
Pro 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

I have traveled extensively.

I would read carefully those words of Wisdom above and consider these things.

When you go to places in Europe, you must keep your guard up and maybe "now that you know" stay the "...." away from there!

While visiting my Churches in Europe years ago, the brothers wanted to take me on some "sight seeing".

Boy, did I see some sights! We went to Anacy, France where the women walk around naked, down at the Lake of course!

In Prato, Italy, you can "check" out the merchandise before you buy. One of our American Missionary "elders" checked it out more than he should have and got a divorce.

Isn't Halloween the same?

What does the Bible teach us a FOOL is? A fool believes there is no God.

Not until the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in this hour WAKES UP and sees SALVATION as it is, will we RAISE UP A STANDARD SO CONVINCING AND CLEAR, even fools will believe there is a God.

I am reminded of the experiment done in the lab. Put a frog in a pan of cold water sitting on a slow burner so the water heats up slowly, it will not know the danger, leave the pan of water and end up dying because the water comes to a slow boil boiling it to death.

Put a frog in a pan of boiling water and it will jump out, quick.

Halloween in this COUNTRY is now like the frog in a pan of slowly boiling water. We don't know the danger it is doing to our nation's conciousness and it will kill us if we don't wise up to the destruction it brings.

Back to Europe, the Frenchman said, "you Americans", it's your lust. We have had this lifestyle for years, to us it's natural, there is no harm in it! hmmmmmm

BUT FOR THE XARIS OF GOD, GO I!

Sleepers, isn't it time to wake?

Or,

Who will awaken them that sleep?

michael

Barbara said...

Hi Again: When we first moved to Holland in 1993 - to be a part of the neighborhood we decided to hand out halloween candy and that way meet others that lived near us. Well, after 500 pieces of candy,(there were several bus loads of kids dropped on our block-because it was a safe place). We were all enjoying seeing people. Then just as the time was expiring to hand out candy - the door bell rang, the boys were at the door with me when I opened it. I have never been so scared in my life - there was a single person with the scariest mask I had ever seen. It did not speak a word, our boys screamed and ran to their room. They had nightmares for weeks. That was the last time we participated in halloween.

You know Daniel lived in a palace but refused to partake of the rich food. We live in a great country - but we do not have to partake in this pagan ritual. I am not legalistic if my heart has been convicted not to participate.

And I ask that we do not call halloween a holiday because the word holiday comes from "holy day".

I have read and heard to many things on this subject - I will serve God and will not give in too "oh, it's not that bad". We are in a spiritual battle- we better know our enemy - because he knows us.

PT2 said...

michael,

I do appreciate your comments, but I have a difficult time following you.

I totally agree with the Proverbs passage; however, I might disagree with you on the way you interpret that passage.

When it says answer not a fool according to its folly, it's saying don't commit the same sin of a fool in order to prove it's foolish....

I'm not saying that we worship Satan on halloween. I'm saying that we redeem the culture in which we live. EVERYTHING this world does is sinful; so, let's expose it by being light in it.

Anyway, I hope that's helpful for you to understand, but I also don't want to get in arguments. Dialogues and debates are fine, but I just don't want this discussion is more pointed than it needs to be.

Thanks again for taking the time to post.

natamllc said...

PT2

Would you agree that God is up to something?

Yes, to answer you, see I can read minds too!

ANSWER THE FOOL ACCORDING TO HIS FOLLY SO THAT HE IS NOT CONCEITED BY HIS OWN REASON, WISDOM.

Why should we, Christ's body, have to apologize for doing what we do?

Are we not now Sons of God?

I believe the "Present state" of God's Holy Dwelling Places, Ps. 46 is anything but like Ps. 149.

Why not just rise up and reign in Life through Jesus Christ Our Lord, Savior, King and High Priest instead of react to the reign of Satan on the earth?

Someone did encourage us to be Salt in the Light, right?

It seems to me debating or bogging down in the fast approaching Halloween distracts us from our NEW FOUND LOVE, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

If I am partaking of His BREAD DAILY daily, I have no room for another's diet.

If by the transgression of the one I suffer death, why not now that I have received the abundance of Grace and the Gift of Righteousness not go ahead and reign in Life through Jesus Christ our Lord? Romans 5:17

If I am now singing a "new song" purchased with His blood to reign on the earth as a Priest and King to Our God, why settle for something less? Revelation 5:9-10

Why not WAR A GOOD WARFARE and see to it that Angels go forth and attack Satan and his angels, our Ministering spirits removing them from their place, casting them down to the earth so that the God of Peace can soon crush them under the Church's feet? Revelation 12 and Romans 16?

Why not set our affections on things above thinking on things that are True, Honest Just, Pure, Lovely, worthy of Praise full of Virtue and "GOOD" REPORT? Col. 3 and Philippians 4?

Here's one, Why not do the things we have learned and received, and heard and seen and the God of Peace will be with us? Philippians 4:9

It seems to me it's now the time the Church stops talking about what's right and wrong with it and with the world and do something about it!

Grace is what I don't deserve.
Mercy is what I receive instead of what I do deserve.
Peace with God is what follows the Grace and Mercy from God.

What about Jesus?
He got no Mercy from God, He got no Grace from God, and for it He got no Peace but full wrath and retribution against all sin! His equitable deed secures my acquittal. hmmmmmm

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And now that IT HAS PLEASED THE LORD TO BRUISE HIM WHY NOT PROSPER IN HIS HAND AGAINST HIS ENEMIES?

It seems to me it is now time for us to fulfill Daniel's prophesy?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

It does this world no good if I die safe and secure received to My Master's Everlasting Arms.

It is time for the Church to rise up and REIGN IN LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST everyday.

It is now our turn to bring the FIGHT to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places through CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD as Paul wrote in Ephesians 3.

It is time for the Honor of the Godly!

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.


thoughts?

michael

AgapeTheologian said...

Just real quick,



It's your own convictions to participate in Halloween or not. When I was younger I would go around and get candy and do all the typical young boys do. When I got to my mid teens, I bought some mask(s) to scare people on Halloween(I have two current). I also have a cd that I use. I don't see the harm in having a little fun dressing up and scarying people. I can give glory to God for having a fun time.

I know there are things that happen on Halloween that are satanic. But I don't think we should think everything that does happen is satanic. I know Christians are in constant battle with demons, I've experienced a trial a while back I didn't go if I could make it through. I know demons are real. But, I don't see why we need to think having a little fun dressing up in scary costumes is wrong.

If you think that is wrong. Would entering a haunted house be even worse? Let me know.


I do enjoy this dialogue. I hope I didn't sound too harsh. If I did, I'm sorry. I'll be checking back for a response...


In Prayers,


-AgapeTheologian

PT2 said...

michael,

I must say that I have a difficult time following you. But I will try to respond to yours and barbara's concerns momentarily.
----------
Agape,

I would have to say that the whole scare-factor might be something that you and I both think through.
----------
To ALL!

I just finished reading a blog in regards to the non-practice of participating in trick-or-treating on Halloween. You can find that at http://drbrooker.net/?p=708. I trust that this will be more in line with some of your positions.

Although, I can find rebuttal with certain things that are said in that blog.

Just two comments in regards to separating ourselves and also redeeming our time. These two are obviously commands - one is a negative and one is a positive. We must separate ourselves and we must redeem the time because all the days are evil. So, what is my take on those commands? We are in the world, not of it. But we are sent into the world. So, we need to minister in this world appropriately. We need to separate ourselves by redeeming the wicked in this world by the power of God at work in us.

My concern lies in the fact that it seems as though Satan can take any holiday (including Christmas) and turn it evil; however, Christians believe that we cannot do the same with a day like Halloween. We can't redeem Halloween. We have to separate from it and make our own thing. Satan doesn't operate like that. He gets into Christmas, makes it look real fun and then deceives the people by reaching out to their coveteous hearts.

Now, I'm not saying that we need to be deceptive. NO. We need to be light. We need to further Christ's Kingdom by being light in the evil days. I tend to think that you can be light while participating in the trick-or-treating custom. Also, the command of Christ seems somewhat applicable to my concern raised: "The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light" (Lk 16:8). So, let's be shrewd but with the light of the gospel!

One other note. Would you send a missionary to a culture where everyone is naked and they worship Satan? Your answer - YES! The question goes further - would you participate in an animal sacrifice to one of their gods? Your answer - NO! But, what if on that same night, you decided to get children uninvolved by having a sort of trick-or-treating time. You gave out candy and you had them dress up for that night? Would that be wrong? My answer - NO! Why? Because they're not participating in the evil practices of the day. Sure, if they're dressing up like demons, etc, that would be wrong. But, in this scenario I don't see anything wrong.

Let's go back to sending a missionary in a culture where people are satanists and wear no clothes.

Why would you send a missionary there? Because they need Christ. You looked past the issue of these two sin issues and went straight to the heart. Your desire is that this nation would come to know Christ and seek after Him. So, your desire is to see a missionary redeem the culture by the power of the Spirit at work within him/her.

In the same sense, I think I can look past the evil wicked practices that happen on halloween and go straight to striving to redeem the culture in which I live even by participating in trick-or-treating.

I trust this makes sense. But, I do appreciate your various viewes expressed.

natamllc said...

Hopefully my friend? PT2

I might say,

all that you just wrote was man "LAW" and you burdened us with achieving something that is impossible, which means you have no idea what you just wrote or you wisely want us to realize the TRUTH about the Law and why it was given?

There is nothing in what you said that sets Christians or devil worshippers free from understanding why we sin!

Only the Law of Righteousness by the Voice of God Himself will set men free from the error of not sinning. We err if we believe we will not sin, because, afterall, Jesus is my Savior who sets me free, He is My Personal Helper, don't you know? It's Jesus and Me, Me, Me! Look at what Jesus did for ME ME ME!

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

One said, "God has not given us the GIFT OF NOT SINNING".

So, you might think, Michael, you are saying it is ok to sin?

No, I am saying, you will and when you do, the solution for the polution is not dilution, it's absolution!!

I am now set free to walk in Christian Liberty and I live in FULL TIME REPENTANCE MODE, by FULL TIME FAITH, in FULL TIME MINISTRY!!!

Our gifts come alive through repentance daily, feasting daily on DAILY BREAD, through Godly fellowship and submission one to another in the fear of God.

You make this all about you and me.

It is not.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

It is all about Jesus and what He did already, not what He will do to meet your needs.

I recommend, if you have not already, read Gerhard O. Forde's, "FIR-DEE's", book:

[ON BEING A THEOLOGIAN OF THE CROSS]. Reflections on Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, 1518.

God is not sleeping PT2/Rob.

God has a plan.

The Church today is going about "working" for Jesus all the while Jesus is sitting patiently waiting to Work "through" you.

I would encourage your repentance from dead works and actually come into the Life won for you at the Cross some two thousand years ago. Hebrews 6:1-3

michael

PT2 said...

Michael,

I understand what you say that what I said was Law; however, the law is not superfluous for the believer just because he is in Christ.

According to the third use of the law, we are to then live lives of gratitude based on the reality of what Christ has done and is doing through us through the Spirit and His resurrection power.

So, while I agree that what I'm saying is Law, that does not mean we should not obey it.

The Law admittedly is to cause us to despair of our efforts, but (like you said), when we fail, we look to the Savior and His sacrifice as our justification.

So, I'm not trying to give the Law in order to only cause despair. I'm giving the Law to people who (I assume) love God and the Law is written on their hearts.

As Michael Horton writes in Christ the Lord, "While the regenerate do not cease sinning, they also do not cease hating their sin and struggling to eradicate it. The believer loves God's law because it is written on his or her heart (jer. 31:33-34), but it is his or her inability to conform perfectly to it that creates this tension in the Christian life, this war within" (p. 50).

I believe that Christ is the Shepherd of souls. He is the One who calls people to Himself. He is the Sovereign over all creation. I also believe that I'm an ambassador of Christ and a child of the King called to a life of progressive sanctification. I'm called to be a light because I posess the light of Christ in me.

It's all about HIM! He must increase and I must decrease. As that occurs by the supernatural power of God, the Lord continues His work in creation.

michael, I must say that you're causing me to think more; however, I'm concerned that you're reading too deep into my writings. It seems as though you want my wording to conform perfectly to how you think it should be said (without "believing all things" - 1 Cor 13).

If you truly think there's a problem in my writing, please continue, but I think you're reading into comments too deeply and focusing on potential negatives.

I could be wrong, but it's merely my perception.

Barbara said...

OK - bascially this is probably under the category of liberties in Christ. I will give an example: many people listen to WJQ and they get upset that I don''t regularly listen to JQ. Here is my reason: A lot of the music on JQ reminds me of when I was not a christian and I hear the rock bands of the 70's. I could probably tell you where some of the christian artists find their music. I have read the words and they are mostly good but the music just does nothing for me spiritually. I tell the teens - if the music leads you to a closer relationship with God listen to it.

It is the same way for halloween-this day makes me sad because satan trys to take even one day is awful.

I also noticed that parents that come to the point with small children that look really cute in their costumes - need to make a decision. We choose not to participate, I have no regrets.

Also I want to share a story from a pastor we know from a former church of his. One of his church members were on a plane and was sitting next to a women who appeared to be praying. She did not stop. At meal time, when asked what she wanted she said she was fasting and went back to praying. The church member was touched by the person's dedication to prayer. As the flight was ending and they were taxying in to the terminal, the church member told the lady how impressed she was by her prayer life - and how she must truly love God. The women turned to the church member and said angrily "I am not a christian - I am on my way to a convention for the church of satan - and I am praying to destroy pastors marriages in the christian church."

As for kids going out - after living in Chicago and Milwaukee- where you can take your candy to the hospital and have it xrayed for razor blades, pins and needles, etc.That is something we did not need.

Most of the posts of the C. site, that you shared are a lot of younger adults that are upset with their parents for depriving them of something. And a lot of them put the "legalistic" tag on too.
No honor of parents at all.

I have read and heard too much too have anything to do with halloween. How am I worshiping God in haunted houses that are making a ton of money- and what am I allowing my eyes to see. No thanks. Choose this day whom you shall serve.....I have always had a sense of peace on Oct. 31st since doing what God would have me do.

Sorry for the long post.

natamllc said...

reaching out with the "right" hand of fellowship, PT2,

you might have the TWO laws mixed up or simply, applying them incorrectly.

Here's the one LAW:

Rom 8:2 For the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ" Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.


Here's the second:

Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the "law of sin and of death".

michael

AgapeTheologian said...

Just real quick,


You say you don't want to participate into haunted houses because they are making tons of money. Then wouldn't it be logical to not watch movies since they make alot of money. Or what about amusement parks? It seems from your statement, we should not have any form of enetertainment if that particular thing is making tons of money. How can one worhship God by watching movies(Wouldn't that be a waste of time)? I'm probably wrong on what you meant, but please fill me in.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, we can see here we do still need the law. The law doens't somehow come invalid because Christ came. We need the law all the more so we can know what sin is and become more like Christ.

That's all for now.

I hope you all have a great day!


In Prayers,


-AgapeTheologian

PT2 said...

Barbara,

Thanks for your response. No need to apologize for the long posts. That seems to be the norm on this discussion!! I appreciate the comments. It's amazing how such practical things can be used for God's glory.

I haven't read all of the comments on Challies site, but I do know that he has updated with more on Halloween. He said that Justin Taylor (the former on-site theologian to Piper has linked to his form) - http://theologica.blogspot.com/2006/10/halloween-reflections.html. So, it seems to be getting a LOT of reads.

Didn't think this would spark this much discussion, but it's definitely beneficial.

PT2 said...

michael,

there are actually three uses of the Law.

Again, I'm quoting from Christ the Lord (ed. Horton).

""First, it is a civil ordinance to keep us from stealing each other's wives, husbands, and speedboats. The civil use of the law applies to the whole culture. Second, the theological use of the law is to reveal our sin and drive us to despair and terror so that we will seek a savior. Luther believe that is a primary use of the law in all of Scripture. But the Reformers also believed in a third use of the law, and that is a didactic use, to teach the Christian God's will for holy living" (p. 205, Rod Rosenbladt).

So, what I'm speaking of in this section relates much to the second AND third use of the Law. If we are not obeying, we run to Christ where our hope is found and then we have a greater sense of freedom to obey.

I hope this clarifies....

natamllc said...

PT2

thanks for that.

It does not change my attitude in this discussion for now.

Your quote from an earlier post herein:::>

[[ My concern lies in the fact that it seems as though Satan can take any holiday (including Christmas) and turn it evil; however, Christians believe that we cannot do the same with a day like Halloween. We can't redeem Halloween. We have to separate from it and make our own thing. Satan doesn't operate like that. He gets into Christmas, makes it look real fun and then deceives the people by reaching out to their coveteous hearts. ]]


My concern here is this: IS SATAN CONCERNED ABOUT YOU?

If he is not, I then would be asking WHY NOT?

Remember this, to get you thinking, THERE WERE FIVE DAYS BEFORE THE SIXTH DAY OF CREATION AND MOMMY AND DADDY.

Think about this about the first day and then make THE DARK ONE concerned ABOUT YOUR ANGER TOWARDS HIS DARKNESS.

Genesis 1:2, bet you got that one memorized?

There are three things, THE EARTH, DARKNESS, THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

That word DARKNESS is the FRUIT OF SOMETHING OR SOMEONE.

The dark one.

Mommy and Daddy came on the sixth day.

And before it all, from those famous seven days to now, ETERNITY, BEFORE, NOW AND HEREAFTER NOW, GOD THE FATHER, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, GOD THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF MAN who brought much concern to the DARK ONE before the first day, and now and hereafter, and, GOD the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, who led the Son of Man, innocent, tender and as a lamb to the slaughter:::>

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

so that from NOW ON as we go about SERVING THE LIVING GOD, we can be concerned about God and one another which will cause Satan some GREAT concern about us too as he found he had to be concerned about and with Jesus!

Rob, Satan is not concerned very much with the Holy Dwelling Places of the Most High dwelling on the earth today. He should be.

When will he be?

Here's what I am concerned about:

Phi 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Phi 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;
Phi 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.


But sadly, "on a more personal note", my concern right now is for my local community because a 16 year old boy was this:::>

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

and did not obey God's servant, the police man to drop the knife so he shot him dead the other day and now our community has increased emotionally as the demons go on a rant instead of the Church rising up with a Holy Ghost CHANT doing this:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

I would say the Church today worldwide is way to subjective about the TRUTH that dwells within and is not bringing the FIGHT to the principalities and powers objectively as we saw and is recorded in Jesus day. Granted, we have had some moments over the last couple of millenium. Ah, 1400's and 1500's maybe?

Our community here is consumed with HALLOWEEN and now they are about to explode because a boy was not properly parented in the things of Christ, oh yeah, he did attend Sunday school!, and gave himself over to the Prince of the power of the air, to obey him, this spirit that works in children of disobedience and found out the hard way, sadly, that the servants of the Lord do not carry the sword in vain!

But back to this discussion,

This earth is the Lord's, legally given to Him by God Almighty, albeit He made everything through Him, but His Church can't even get on the same page and look something like this on the world stage:

Phi 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Phi 2:2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.


My prayer and my exhortation to who ever will listen is this:

Phi 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.


so that these two things will happen in our lifetime:

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


thoughts?

michael

Barbara said...

Hi Justin: Sorry for the money issue,I was beginning to ramble. What I was meaning by the money was that-we are paying money to see an evil presentation - I guess this is an evil I don't want to be apart of. Yes, I am particular in what I see, not only in content but is it just going to be a waste of my time. Anyway I am not a fan of scary things - maybe it goes back to when I was little, my brother scared me one time and I ran and fell all the way down the stairs and got hurt. there was other times too - but I don't care to discuss it. The whole evil/satan/pagan festival thing is not what God wants me to participate in.

PT2 said...

Michael,

You ask for my thoughts every time, and honestly, I'm tired. Also, I don't think it'd be a wise use of my time right now to respond to your lengthy comments.

In regards to my being "tired" - it's because I cannot understand how all of your comments link together. In addition to this, some of your comments don't seem to be going where you desire them to go. My final thought is that there seems to be underlying assumptions that you're making about me and my beliefs in your writing (you seeming to think that I disagree or will disagree with you).

I am sorry, but it seems as though if I were to respond to you, you'd disagree all the while not realizing that I, too, believe the gospel of grace in Christ. Also, it seems as though you don't think that I also desire to do those things that God has commanded us to do (Phil. 4:9).

All that said, you are still very welcome on this blog; however, I am tired of this type of conversation. I hope that maybe you will understand (1 Corinthians 13).

As a side note, just wanted to make sure you knew that my name is not Rob....

Anonymous said...

HOW TO TRICK OR TREAT TO THE GLORY OF GOD, or anything else we do to Gods glory- isn't that point?

are you gonna be sitting home, hiding from neighbors, fine- BUT do it for GODS GLORY, not prideful like " I am better then these sinners who are out trick or treating"

gonna trick or treat- Fine- but do it for GOds Glory, don't yell at the kids, or say mean comments. use a gentle voice, tell a little girl dressed like a princess she is beautiful. etc.. hand out tracks. whatever..

as for satans holiday? EVERYday satan tries to steal as HIS. this is NOT special occasion. there is SICK sin everyday...

wil I let my kids go? yeah, do I spend $$ on the hholiday? NO.
put on a old outfit and go.

it boils down to GLORIFYING GOD>
its a HEART issue. essp if your being self righteous and talking about those who do participate..

my thoughts!

Anonymous said...

me again-K-

um.. i forgot- i LOVE to scarepeople, even my own kids, you know, hiding behind doors, under beds. etc.. fun fun.. so is that wrong? its NOT halloween and i am scaring them..

just a thought

natamllc said...

PT2,

yes, Your name is not Rob, I got you and E-man mixed up.

Well, as I see it, hopefully, I will respond with comments PT2 permitting?.

PT2, so, are you baptized with the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues?

michael

AgapeTheologian said...

Michael,


I hope you don't believe being Baptize in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is essential. Why do you ask that question anyway?

I am a born again believer, and God had not given me the gift of speaking in Tongues...



-AgapeTheologian

natamllc said...

Agape

no, don't believe that.

Do believe the Bible.

It has within it's pages some things hard to believe and understand.

For instance,

the very first and second and maybe by the third time I read Exodus, I scorned God because I just could not believe the things I read in there. Could you?

My question for PT2 was for clarification.

I too am Born Again. It is clear. It is thrilling.

I do happen to speak in Tongues and these days, I am praying in tongues more than you all, or not?

I find that PT2 doesn't follow my reasoning of Scriptures at times.

But hey, I'm married now 19 years and my wife don't agree with my reasoning either, so I am not surprised or shaken if anyone finds my reasonings hard to understand!

And I have two sons, one 16 and the other 13. Hey, I don't understand their understanding or reason. We go at it one day at a time in these here parts, you?


michael

PT2 said...

hey, michael,

Just wanted to clarify - it's not that I don't understand your reasonings. It's that your reasonings are not being written out in a systematic approach. So, I am having a difficult time following you. It seems as though you go from one topic to another and then back to the other topic without mentioning that you're shifting to another point.

Barbara said...

This is for Michael: Regarding tongues - according to scripture --if someone is speaking in tongues there is always an interpreter present other than the one speaking in tongues. Is that true for you?
Thanks

natamllc said...

AAAAAH, pt2

WHAT SHALL I DO?

Answer Barbara too?

MICHAEL

PT2 said...

michael,

nice rhyming.... :)

Anyway, yeah, go ahead and answer. It's good to hear other perspectives.

natamllc said...

Thanks PT2

Barbara

I married a girl from the Philippines.

She is from a smaller island, Bohol, a part of the Visyan group surrounded by the South China Sea.

They have their own "tongue" there.

If you are from another island and go there you might not be able to understand what is being said.

I say that to address this issue and hopefully express my "WORKING" TRUTH about Tongues/prophecy and tongues/prayer language.

While at one of our evening services here in my Church, [here in the United States and several years after she came to live here with me as my wife] and just during a pause of some deeply flowing "spiritual" worship to the Lord a man began speaking in an "unknown" language.

My wife grabbed my arm and squeezed it and bent over and wept.

It was an instant emotional outburst for her and was quite out of character for her seeing she was just before full of JOY worshipping Our God the Father, Jesus Our Lord and Savior in the Power of the Holy Ghost.

What happened, I was now thinking?

Afterwards she said that man spoke clearly a message to her from God in her native tongue!

When we go and read Acts Two, we can realize, I believe, that is what was "happening" there. It was supernatural. It was miracleous. It was something no demon could do! Would you say amen to that?

Now as for being filled with the Holy Ghost, or let us say it Paul the Apostle's way, SEALED by the Holy Ghost, that we are, as he writes here:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

See that phrase: WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF?

Consider now what he is getting too, without condemnation mind you here:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

AND

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul makes this distinction between prophecy, which is done orderly in the gatherings of the People, and praying in tongues, a gift of God also, tongues.

Now to that phrase EARNEST. Consider this here that Paul said to the Ephesian elders:

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Break this verse out and you will see four things:

one: God
two: the Word of His Grace
three: God and His Word of Grace, build us up
and
four: we have an inheritance, an EARNEST of our Faith.

Paul said he spoke with tongues more than all those he was blessed to Shepherd. hmmmmmm

Paul also did not allow foolishness to get out of hand as we might conclude the Church at Corinth was heading without those tempering words of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14.

When one will SPEAK FORTH in an unknown language AS A WORD OF PROPHECY, there should be a CLEAR WORD OF INTERPRETATION.

When one will pray in tongues, it's to build oneself up in the Spirit and to edify or to refresh or empower oneself on the battlefields of this life.

Now back to Acts 20 but this time through Acts 19:

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


You can see that even those early Apostles were shooting from the hip you might say as they too went about Preaching this Gospel of the Kingdom.

Here we see the inquistion and the outcome, yes?

So it makes good sense that in Acts 20 once Paul gathered the Elders of Ephesus together it would be fresh in his mind to make mention of the INHERITANCE seeing God acts Sovereignly and we are to Walk with God and Talk with God and do with God His Will in all matters of Life and Godliness or a better way of saying it ALLOW GOD TO LIVE HIS WILL IN ALL MATTERS OF OUR LIFE BY HIS DOING seeing we will fail doing it for Him.

Condemantion comes on me when I fail God.

How can I be delivered from condemnation? By Word and Sacrament and Fellowship with both God and chosen man. We are not suppose to have fellowship with demons or those who live in darkness. We are God's children, children of His Light.

My inquiry was a bit of frustration with PT2 seeing I brought out of him those responses for all the bloggers to read hereon about having a hard time following my reasonings.

I am not surprised. I do that so well!

Was that helpful.

If not, PT2 has lent us this place to go at it some more.

michael

GCS said...

Dear, dear Michael,

Here's the question: Is your segregating yourself from this "pagan, evil" (holi)day really going to be at all more beneficial than greeting people, being a friendly neighbor, and not just being dissociative from those who you believe are "celebrating" an evil day.

Why not use a day that you APPARENTLY know that Satan desires to use against believers (as if this is the only day/time of the year that he even tries to do so!) and turn it back on him by being friendly and not separating yourself even further from the people to whom you are to witness! How, I ask YOU, are you being a witness if all you do is sit in your house and do nothing to defeat Satan on this day when you could be combating the forces of evil!

Sure, how about you go and just create even a further rift and even more resentment from people who already feel anger towards us!

I DO NOT believe, however, that you should just go and participate in anyhting and everything that Halloween has to offer. I most certainly think that whatever you do on Halloween, you need to do it for the glory of God and for the purpose of maximizing HIS glory. I believe that you should abstain from trick-or-treating and dressing up and stuff, unless you have a specific purpose for doing so - namely, to evangelize.

And, in regard to tongues, I DO believe that a demon could do so. Why wouldn't he be able to? AND just because someone is speaking in a certain language, that doesn't mean that they're speaking in tongues. You said yourself that it was your wife's native language, yet, apparently, shealso speaks English. SO, just because someone can speak in a certain language, that doesn't mean that they're "speaking in tongues" in the sense that we're speaking of! I believe that
Satan and the demons know many, if not EVERY, language. And, remember, there is one common language that Satan and his demons use toward everyone to get them (the people) to do what they (the demons and Satan) want the people to do - SIN. With sin Satan and his demons can use people for MANY, MANY purposes. People can be "speaking in tongues" yet have it not be from God, and, in fact, it could be that they're even BLASPHEMING God!

Although speaking in tongues CAN BE a gift from God, just because someone is doing so does not mean that it is from God.

Also, does condemnation really come on you when you fail God? Or is it that you're condemned before you're even born? (Just a thought here - not going to comment more right now on this subject)

PT2 said...

Thanks, gcs, for your insight.

Also, michael, in regards to your story about your wife hearing someone speaking to her through tongues....

My dad had a similar experience with someone decades ago. They visited a church where people were speaking in tongues. My dad's friend heard someone speaking in tongues, and that person was speaking HIS language. BUT, that person (instead of praising God) was blaspheming God.

Did you get interested in studying the doctrine of tongues before or after the experience with your wife? The reason I ask is just to caution you not to say that something is right just because it "worked" once.

I'm sure you're aware of that, but just was wondering and wanting to explain my question.

AgapeTheologian said...

Just real quick,


I think we are giving way less credit to demons then they deserve. They can speak in tongues, where does it say they can't. They can come and appear as friendly foes and actually be enemies. They want to distract us from anything possible. I am not saying that speaking in tongues is satanic. But I am saying to be careful just because you/your wife had heard someone speak in tongues...


Gotta run.


In Prayers,


-AgapeTheologian

natamllc said...

PT2

had problems with my computer all day.

just now getting to reading the posts.

There was a lot in a couple of them that I won't respond to them before I ponder and "consult" with God.

As to your question though:::>

[[ Did you get interested in studying the doctrine of tongues before or after the experience with your wife? ]]

I got interested in tongues on July 21, 1975 when I was filled most miracleously.

My only study of the topic has been the Word of God. I have listened to the debates. I have not taken the time to "study" other men's minds on it by reading their books.

What I laid out to Barbara fairly reflects my yea and nay.

I believe in two manifestations, one is a prophecy and the other is prayer.

I don't discount the story with my wife nor do I discount other stories from Trusted, Proven men of God, well qualified to Preach and Teach and with an anointing and power of the Holy Ghost.

I could have sited other accounts to Barbara but chose the one with my wife seeing it was most personal to me. I knew the brother who spoke in the tongues. I know my wife and she wouldn't "cloud" what happened.

My thrust of query towards you was to gain some insight into how the Holy Ghost speaks to you.

Do you read the Bible daily?
Do you pray in the Spirit daily?
Do you ponder and meditate on the Word and His Names daily?

Those would be some queries along with do you believe you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost as Acts clearly develops?

Do you speak in tongues?

michael

GCS said...

Michael,

I would like to know which comments you're not going to respond to and why. Also, PLEASE stop changing the subject continually. We started with Halloween, and now we've gotten to the gifts of Christians (of which I would like to know why). Also, WHY IN THE WORLD do you ask questions that make it seem like you want them to be answered, yet, when they are answered, you go onto a (very) different subject, but you don't even directly reply to those subjects without taking them completely out of context or simply by not answering them at all.




Please explain why.

AgapeTheologian said...

Michael,


I want you to know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit. Does that mean I HAVE to speak in tongues? By not means. In the New Testament, countless times it's a gift from God. Not every believer will speak in tongues. It's a gift, and it's only recorded in the Bible with an interpreter. How is it edifying if you pray in 'tongues' and no one around you can be benefit from your language with God. I'm sorry, but you nor God are being benefited by using this secret language. Be encouraging to others by praying in your language...


"Do you read the Bible daily?
Do you pray in the Spirit daily?
Do you ponder and meditate on the Word and His Names daily?

Those would be some queries along with do you believe you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost as Acts clearly develops?

Do you speak in tongues?"


I pray daily, I am in God's word daily. I also ponder and mediatate on the Word daily. I am baptised in the Holy Spirit as the whole Bible teaches. Do I speak in tongues. I do not and I am proud of it. God has not given me the gifts to speak in tongues that I know of. God has given me other gifts that you do not have.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like to me that if I am truly born again, I will be speaking in tongues in some form or way.

I hope I didn't come off to strong or mean towards you. I enjoy this dialogue, and I hope we will both be encouraged to look to Him.


In Prayers,


-AgapeTheologian

natamllc said...

PT2

well?

this is your dime here?

Would you like me to go into those posts or no?

michael

PT2 said...

Michael,

Interesting questions and things to ponder.

Those questions are difficult to answer in one sense because I'm unsure how you define certain terms such as "in the Spirit" and "meditate on His names." So, I don't think I can accurately answer your questions without understanding what you mean.

That said, I do strive to be a meditator of the Word and to grow in my prayer life - praising God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - living in dependence on Him for all things.

Primarily the Holy Spirit speaks to me through the Word - pointing me to Christ. That's the aim of the Spirit - to glorify the Son. So, that's our aim, and that's what the Holy Spirit does through the Word.

I do believe that the Spirit can teach through circumstances and even feelings, but all of these things must be subject to the Word first.

In regards to prophecy - my answer's the same.

In regards to praying in tongues. I see that passage that you quoted in Corinthians and see that Paul was saying, "There's no benefit in praying in tongues; so, let's pray in our own language."

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

See, he says, "So, I'm not going to pray in tongues. I'm going to pray with understanding in the spirit."

Also, I don't believe that all believers have the gift of tongues (not did all of them have it in the 1st century).

To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of xwisdom, and to another the utterance of yknowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another zfaith by the same Spirit, to another agifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another bthe working of miracles, to another cprophecy, to another dthe ability to distinguish between spirits, to another evarious kinds of tongues, to another fthe interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, gwho apportions to each one individually has he wills" (1 Cor. 12:7-11).

See, in this passage, Paul says that some people speak in tongues, others interpret, etc. So, not everyone spoke in tongues even in the first century nor were they required to.

I do believe that the gift of tongues does take place today; however, I believe that it takes place primarily in places where Christ has not been proclaimed (such as cultures who have never heard Christ) and it's done so that God may prove Himself through this miracle to the people. So, it's primarily evangelistic.

But, I will admit that there was use of it in the church, too. However, to me, there was always an interpreter. And, Paul says it's always necessary to have an interpreter (unless everybody speaks that language) so that people may benefit from it.

So, this is my biblical understanding of the topic.

Hope this is helpful.

Also, I will take one change for you to respond and then I'm going to close out this dialogue. Just an FYI.

natamllc said...

PT2

What you have laid out is clear and easily entreated.

I have nothing to respond to it except what I would do with it is "build" upon those sound, good Words clearly from Him typed out hereon by you.

As to the others questionings from your participants?

What do you want here to be done?

Let all things be done in moderation and decently and in order.

I might suggest placing my personal email address hereon for those who would want to continue those other discussions? I am not dodging any questions.

That too is your call.

I quite agree with Scripture as the Holy Ghost said.

I quite agree with Scripture as the Lord Jesus taught and the Holy Ghost "quickens" our understanding seeing many things taught are hard to understand even in these days with so many concordances and commentaries etc. etc. etc. available to us.

I quite agree with Scripture that in the end God Our Heavenly Father, the Lord Himself and the Holy Ghost are to be glorified in our personal living and our dying and in our public living and dying.

I quite agree that the servants of the Lord must not strive at any time on any level, else we too will be found guilty of taking the Name of the Lord in vain!

That is not to say there is no place for Apologetics.

awaiting your instructions and direction?

michael

PT2 said...

Maybe the wisest thing would be to simply close out this conversation for now.

GCS said...

Maybe... but Michael, you didn't even address my questions at all. Why? I don't know. But I would personally REALLY like you to answer my questions.

I'm asking you directly to respond.

GCS said...

(By the way I was saying "Maybe..." in response to what PT2 said most recently about closing the conversation)

Stephen Field said...

Well at least Reformation Day falls on Halloween to.

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